Can Dance Be Medicine? The Healing Power of Movement, Play & Connection with Geeta Maker-Clark, MD

[00:00:00] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: We're not using our cognition necessarily to dance when we just listen to music and start moving and to me, that is it. It's an incredibly powerful part of our human physiology that we have that ability to do that, and that reconnecting and reclaiming our dance roots is actually a way that we can also reduce our risk of neurodegenerative disease, you know, and help our brains be healthy and happy.

[00:00:26] Dr, Melinda Ring: This is Next Level Health. I'm your host, Dr. Melinda Ring, Director of the Osher Center for Integrative Health at Northwestern University. On this show, we explore ways to take actionable steps towards optimizing our health with leaders in the integrative, functional, and lifestyle medicine fields who believe in science backed and time tested approaches to well being. Let's take your health to the next level

[00:00:55] Dr. Melinda Ring: Today we're talking about freely available medicines backed by modern science and ancestral wisdom that can be found in our food, out in nature, in our communities, and through movement, gratitude and more. My guest today is Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark, a board certified integrative medicine physician, clinical assistant professor at the University of Chicago, Pritzker School of Medicine, and co-director of its culinary medicine programs. For more than 25 years. She studied with healers, herbalists, midwives, and farmers around the world asking one powerful question, what actually heals us? Her answer is in her new book, Medicine for All People, Science and Ancient Wisdom for Revolutionary Healing. I am so happy to have her here on the show today to tell us how those medicines work and how we can use them to reach our own next level of health. Geeta. Welcome to the show.

[00:01:52] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Thank you so much, Melinda, for having me. I'm so thrilled to be here.

[00:01:56] Dr. Melinda Ring: Well, let's jump in and we'll jump in right at the start of your book, which was such a beautiful opening. You talked about work as a physician isn't to fix what is broken, but to nourish what is forgotten. And in the prologue, you share this lovely story about where those words came from. I think you were only 19 years old, so can you take us back to that night and then share why that lesson stayed with you for your entire career?

[00:02:26] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Yeah. Yeah, it was, it's a very powerful time. You know, I think when we are in college and we're exploring and like so many other students and my own right now, I was studying abroad too, and I decided to go to India. You know, I had another country lined up. In Europe, I changed my mind because I was having a moment in my life where I really felt like I wanted to explore my own identity and really understand the roots of my ancestors from India. And the immigrant experience that I'd had had been actually very isolating and challenging for me. And so I felt like it was time to go home, and understand what home really meant to me. So that was a very powerful trip to begin with. But I was working in a rural area by choice to really see what the indigenous peoples of my country, India, you know, were, um, valuing, their health practices, their means of nutrition, their survival. And it was only two generations ago that my family was a farming agricultural family in India. So it was, it was an incredible, um, experience for me to be in a very quiet time of life and in a quiet place where we would gather at night and sit around a fire, and there was a wise woman in the village who would come once in a while and share her stories and her wisdom, and people really valued her opinion. And so I was really enamored and intrigued by her. There was something about her that I wanted to be like, that I wanted to emulate. I wanted to be someone that people would come to when they needed help. I could recognize that even then. She asked me what I wanted to do with my life and I said, I think I want to be a doctor. I wanna help people be healthier. And I was very nervous that she was talking to me, you know, because there were so many people there. And she had zeroed in on me, and she really looked at me deeply and carefully and said, you know, your job is not to fix what is broken. Your job is to nourish what is forgotten. That is your work. And, and I don't know if she meant it specifically for me or if she meant that in a larger sense, but it went in very deeply. For me, it was one of those moments where someone gives you some pearls of wisdom and you know, that's what they are. And I, I mean, this was in Hindi of course, so I translated it in my mind what she was saying, and I, I wrote it down and it has stayed with me and it actually guided the rest of my career.

[00:04:57] Dr. Melinda Ring: And it's so manifest in this book that you wrote, um, which is organized then around this idea of a medicine pouch holding nine medicines, and then you define these medicines of the earth, connection and spirit. So in your mind, what makes something actually then qualify as medicine?

[00:05:16] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Yeah. This is a question that I'm still exploring. You know, as I practice, as I live and learn, I, I think that what we've considered medicine, modern medicine, is extraordinary in diagnosing, in measuring, in treating disease, but the medicines that I'm speaking to and what I'd like to shift as we think about the word medicine, is remembering the conditions and the environment that actually allow human beings to truly thrive and heal and those. Medicines have been with us throughout time, you know, and we've lost our way to some degree, to remembering that food is a medicine, that our culture and belonging is medicine. That we are part of nature. We are not separate from nature. And that nature is a deep medicine for us that. Movement and dancing and joy, our medicines. And when I say these, you know, when I speak these, I think people can resonate. Oh yes. You know, I feel so good when I'm in nature, when I'm dancing, when I'm with the community, when I'm eating nourishing food. Yet somehow we have not associated them with medicinal qualities, you know, as we do a pharmaceutical or something that we purchase and that we imbibe. So my hope is that we can, we can again nourish what is forgotten so that we can remember and reclaim that, which has always been medicine.

[00:06:41] Dr. Melinda Ring: Yeah. That's interesting the way you said, you know, not something you can buy because we're, we are seeing, now, produce prescriptions, nature prescriptions, park prescriptions. It's almost like, in this day we need to write it as a prescription for it to be viewed as medicine, even though inherently we know that. So it's interesting now. With all of the healing traditions that you have studied in India, you mentioned Brazil, Belize, indigenous communities. Are there common threads that show up? Like is that what sort of helped you come to these nine categories? Is that what built them or, or are there other common threads?

[00:07:23] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: So I landed on the medicines that I centered the book around, through years and decades of listening, you know, to patients, to elders, to community organizers to medicine, people in ancient cultures that I was lucky to visit and learn from. To listen to plants, honestly, and to scientists, researchers, to paying attention to what resonated in my own life. So what I kept seeing. I think you may relate to this as well, Melinda, is that people aren't just asking for a diagnosis or a prescription. They value that and they want to know what's wrong with them, and they'd like to be able to feel better, but they're also wanting to know how to live. You know, how can I live such that I can have a better life than, you know, maybe the one that I have right now, and how can I find comfort and joy in the life that I have, and how do I reconnect with my body when I've been so separated from it through decades of chronic pain and realizing then as we do an integrative medicine and dive deep, that like pain doesn't just live in the body, right? It also lives in the spirit. And how do we move that pain through by being connected with the earth, where we belong in nature. So over time I really started to recognize that the medicines that people needed were really the very same things that Modern Life had really separated us from. And that was true throughout the world. And also there were so many cultures that had such deep understanding and access to these medicines for all people. And while I decided on nine of them for the book, there are hundreds more, you know?

[00:09:08] Dr. Melinda Ring: Sure. These medicines are, are free and all around them, but you're also clear in your book that access is not always equal. So a family may not have a safe park, they might not have a robust produce, you know, laden grocery store or they may not have time off work. And these are really barriers to almost anything in that pouch. So hold. How do you hold that truth alongside the practical advice so it doesn't become one more thing that people feel like they are just gonna fail at?

[00:09:43] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Yes. Well, I wanted to be very clear that these were, this was not another set of prescriptions or call to action for people to add to their list. Unburden of things they already feel like they can't and won't be able to do. It was to gently acknowledge that these medicines are for all people. They are all around us, but we do live in an unjust society where access isn't freely available even to green space, you know, or to healthy food as we know, or even to community. 'cause it can be very isolating to live, especially in America and not have ready access to a sense of belonging. So I bring those things up, not because I think a book can change them or an individual can change them, but because I do think there are ways in which we can build our own resilience. We can build our own strength and health through small accessible ways as we work towards a more just society in a more just world. And so I relay many of those stories in my book of patients who have, you know, a great deal of challenges and how they were able to sort of co-create a plan with me that we could, um, transcend some of those challenges so they could access nature, access community, and you know, even dance in your own home for five minutes and change their mindset. 

[00:11:05] Dr. Melinda Ring: So let's jump into a few of those now. You know, maybe a few of the things so that people can hopefully at the end of this podcast even start to, um, fill their pouch. You know, the first category you go through is the medicines of the earth. That idea of being in nature. Just being in a forest as a pharmacy, which could be a surprise to some people, and some people may say I'm, you know, not an outdoorsy person. I know personally I like the outdoors, but I'm also a mosquito magnet, so it's not always the most pleasant thing. You also push back on the idea that somebody's not outdoorsy and that we need a gear and a destination. So for somebody who is maybe time poor, maybe they're in the city, what, what can that look like to get in touch with nature?

[00:11:52] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do really want people to start thinking of themselves as outdoorsy, you know? And I think a retail lens has made us think we need to dress a certain way and go certain places and love mosquitoes, you know, to be an outdoorsy person. And really, my hope is that we'll all start to realize that we actually are physiologically built to be outside. Like that's how our brains and our bodies developed in the outdoors within nature, in relationship to nature. So that doesn't have to be hiking or boating or kayaking or being in a deep forest 'cause. For most people that is not accessible. But like you said, if you live in a city that can mean walking on a city street and just noticing the bird song looking up at the sky rather than, you know, down at your feet. Taking a moment to sit on a city park bench and breathe in the air, even if it may not be the same as forest air, you know, it's still better most of the time than indoor air. Believe it or not. A lot of the research shows that indoor air is much worse for us than outdoor air. I mean, there's the natural filtration of the trees that's available outside, and if there are any trees around, you know, taking time to know them, observe them. Know the trees that live in your neighborhood. These are all very small ways, but surprisingly for many people, the outdoors isn't a place that they're actually spending time in. They're using it as a, like conduit to get to another indoor space.

[00:13:20] Dr. Melinda Ring: Yeah. Well, what about bringing the outdoors in and having a plant or,

[00:13:25] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Absolutely.

[00:13:25] Dr. Melinda Ring: A pet I think is a way to have a connection to, uh, a different part of nature. Sure.

[00:13:30] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: I agree, and I think pets are another way in which people feel such an incredible connection to something that is of nature, um, but may not recognize it as such. But yeah, indoor plants, wonderful idea and a way that even the research has shown we can heal faster. Even if we're looking out a window and observing trees and plants outside, we will heal faster than when not.

[00:13:56] Dr. Melinda Ring: Yeah. Now there's a few other things that you talk about in this section, and one is something that I hadn't heard about because one is called dusking. Now I'm familiar with encouraging people to get exposure to light as early in the morning as you can to, you know, address the melatonin, get somebody's circadian rhythm going. But you talk about the other side of things, which is dusking. So can you explain what that is and what happens in our physiology when we deliberately. In.

[00:14:26] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Yeah. Yeah. Dusk is such a magical, magical part of the day. It's so beautiful, you know, to notice the colors changing in the sky, the pinks and the blues and the purples that start to emerge in that moment, and it's. It's beautiful to look at, and it is also actually very powerful physiologically for us to witness the day ending because especially in this time of artificial light of not just electricity, but of course also the screens and the blue light that we get from our phones and computers, we've actually lost touch with when the day ends, right? We can extend our days and the work of our days until, you know, as long as we want through the entire night. In fact, so that dusking moment allows us, first of all to pause and be part of the cycle of the day and the cycles of nature to observe in beauty and be in awe of beauty, which in and of itself is a, an incredible human characteristic that we have and our melatonin. Which is entirely, um, you know, coordinated by the receptors on the back of our eye also starts to rise as we notice the change in frequency of the light. So like you were saying, you know, in the morning we get this morning light and our melatonin subs. Sides because now your body's getting the message that like, it's morning, it's time to start the day, let's energize. It's not sleep time anymore. Cortisol goes up, melatonin goes down. The hormonal orchestra, you know, kicks into gear. And at the end of the day, it's equally important that we give ourselves time to prepare for sleep. And so many people that I know are sleep deprived. For many reasons, but I think a lot of it is because we aren't respecting the natural need for our body to prepare for sleep, right? You can't just close the computer, turn off the phone, close your eyes, and expect to fall into deep sleep when your mind has been so activated and your body hormonally has been so activated. So dusking is an opportunity I wanna present as a medicine as well, to connect with nature, to allow your body to do what it knows how to do. And even if you don't go to sleep right after dusk, I mean most of us don't, your melatonin will start to rise and you will be able to pause and understand that, okay, now it's time for me to move into evening activities rather than keep this sort of unnatural pace of um, you know, the high intensity of the

[00:16:53] Dr. Melinda Ring: Yeah, all the checkoffs off all the things on the list. Other one I wanted to touch on was earthing or grounding. Um, again, something that. Can be very freely available. You know, you can actually get grounding mats and sheets and sleep pads and things like that. So what is, what do you want people to know about earthing and grounding and what, what maybe the science shows and then. You know, what do you think about all of these ways that you can technologically ground, um, without actually touching dirt or earth.

[00:17:28] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Right. Well. You know, it's, I, I love that humans are always finding ways to sort of shortcut, you know, like to biohack what if you will, you know, to get to the, to the result without maybe the, the experience required to get there. But I'll start by saying that Earthing, you know, is really a very interesting term for the simple practice of being on the earth barefoot, you know, which we have done since the beginning of human times and even before we were humans and we were on four legs, right? So the earth is an incredible battery of energy, powered by the sun, and it has very strong electromagnetic fields. We are very protected from those electromagnetic fields by wearing shoes, usually with rubber soles that then ground us, so to speak, ground us as if you know, if a bolt of lightning, for instance, were to come through us, you know, it wouldn't go straight down into the earth. We have this, this grounding material between us. Of course, those were developed to protect our feet from the harshness of the ground. But what it also does is keeps us from feeling the electromagnetic frequency and field coming through our body, which our cells require to align. So, so many people can relate to this concept by saying like, I feel so great when I'm on vacation. Like when you go on a beach vacation, when you go to the beach, right? Usually you're barefoot on the beach, you're barefoot on the sand, or you're standing in the water. Even better, where there's higher conduction. And of course maybe it's, you're not working, you're with your family or friends. There's many other factors why you might feel great on vacation, but I really. Don't wanna discount the fact that you're also earthing. You're also getting an opportunity to just let your body be in alignment with the field of the earth. And there's a lot of science around this. There's a lot of research around it. You and I live in the Chicago area. Being barefoot in January isn't really in the cards, at least for me. Like I can't bear it, but I will whenever I can. I mean, any other time of year when it's not freezing will be outside barefoot for as little as a few minutes to as much to, you know, as much as I can in a day or even have my hands in soil gardening or touching the ground if it's not the my feet, so that there is some connection to the earth that's not through a barrier and. Anecdotally, the reason the science was even, you know, delved into was that anecdotally people were describing feeling so much better when they did this, that the science started to emerge. That yes, this is actually anti-inflammatory. This is a very powerful process for the body. We belong barefoot on the earth, we belong. Aligned. Now to your question about the grounding mats and the grounding sheets. Do they work? Are they just as, uh, you know, efficient and sufficient as being outside on earth? I've looked at the data of some of them. I've bought some grounding shoes myself, you know, trying to see if I could notice something. And I, I will say, I honestly can't speak to the fact that. You know, whether they're as effective as being on the earth or not. I, I haven't seen the data to be compelling. I think anything is worth a try if your pocketbook allows for it.Because I have many patients who are like me, I'm really interested in doing everything I possibly can to sleep better, to be, as, you know, physiologically aligned as I can be with nature. And I just can't, for whatever reason, be outside or tolerate the cold or I, there's a disability involved. I  don't discourage people from this, but I, what, what I would encourage is before you go buy the products, first, give the number one earth energy a shot, which is the earth itself.

[00:21:23] Dr. Melinda Ring: Good advice. Good advice. Yes. Uh, yeah. I would say anecdotally too, I've had some people who have told me about it and been like, ah, I feel, I feel so much calmer. I feel less inflamed. I'm sleeping better. But that's all an anecdote. And, uh, and, and so who knows? Who knows? Um, but as you also say, like. Probably pretty low harm other than your wallet. Right? Right. Okay. Uh, okay. Let's move on to the second big pouch of, uh, which are the medicines of connection. And the Surgeon General's Advisory reported that loneliness can be as harmful as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Let's talk about why relationships are powerful medicine. What happens to us if we're chronically disconnected? And then, you know, maybe a little bit about your mycelium collective and um, is that something anyone can do?

[00:22:22] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: So the surgeon General Vivek Murthy, under the Biden administration, was very powerfully influential by bringing loneliness to the front of public health. Uh. And describing how it is a true public health emergency when we are socially isolated for chronically long periods of time, and that this actually can equate to smoking several cigarettes a day and actually can lead to increased mortality. And I thought that was so powerful that he chose that. You know, a factor of our social human condition to bring into the frontline because so many people are suffering from the disease of loneliness. And rarely do doctors or healthcare professionals consider that you know, a problem for the problem list, when truly it may be having the largest effect on their health and any other condition that they are facing. So. I wanted to speak into that as a medicine in the power of community as a medicine, because what community gives us is a sense of safety and a sense of belonging, and it's deeply regulating our nervous system, which is wired around a herd instinct. We are not wired to be alone. We are not designed to be lone wolves. We are designed to be in a herd, and so when we are chronically alone, what happens is. You know, the nervous system starts to really shift towards being in the sympathetic fight or flight way more than it is in a rest or digest mode, into the parasympathetic mode. And now we're doing all this work around vagal training, you know, and trying to help people have more vagal tone and. Really what I think we need to be looking at first is, is there social connection in your life? And if there isn't, how can we help people foster that? And I do feel really optimistic about that because I think so many communities have many ways in which they can freely and accessibly bring people into community. But not all people know they can do that.

[00:24:26] Dr. Melinda Ring: And for somebody who is feeling genuinely lonely right now, and you know, again, it is an epidemic of loneliness, um, which just got exacerbated after the pandemic. And you know, as much as, um, many people enjoy working remotely for some that can also be. You know, very isolating. Um, so what, what is a first step for somebody who feels genuinely alone?

[00:24:54] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Yeah. Well, if you have even one person in your life that you feel that you can reach out to, that you trust, that you feel safe with, I would encourage you to reach out to that person and let them know that you're feeling lonely, or strike up a conversation and then ask if you can have conversations more regularly. And that can really be as simple as making a phone call. I've actually like roleplayed this with patients where, you know, lonely patients, where I'm like, okay, you haven't talked to your daughter in a few days, but when you speak with her, you always feel better. Let's kind of talk through how we can create a plan for you to ask her for regular calls on such and such days. And it's been really effective for people to have that sort of support and help of thinking about how they can create just a little more regularity of connection. There's also the piece of being out in the world, you know, I think, like you said, Melinda, a lot of people are working remotely and that means they're staying home and they're not like getting outside and talking to the, you know, grocery store aisle checkout person or like their post person when they come up the steps. And those small interactions matter a lot. You know, the research shows that it's not about having necessarily lots of deep connections, but many small ones that can also be very, very deeply helpful for our physiology and our sense of belonging. So making it a point to get out of the house every day, whether it is to go for a walk. Take the dog for a walk, run an errand, and make a connection and eye contact with someone are small, but meaningful ways that we can start to train ourselves again, to be back out in the world of connection. And it does take time, but for many people, as soon as they like, start using that muscle again. It's like, oh, this feels wonderful.

[00:26:41] Dr. Melinda Ring: And one of the other medicines in your. In this, in this midsection of the book is that of save a, save a or service and most people think of service as something we are giving of ourselves as opposed to that aspect of it as something that also heals us. So what does the evidence show about? What happens to the person who serves?

[00:27:07] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Yes. So se that is actually a Sanskrit term, you know, and it, and it means more than just serving others. It's actually a selfless service, meaning that we are giving of ourselves to our communities. We are giving our spirit to our community, and what happens in return. The research is profound on this, that volunteering, uh, which is certainly a form of CE A, allows for so many physiological factors to improve that. Actually it's one of the most powerful medicines available to us. Our blood pressure lowers, there are inflammatory biomarkers that decrease our lifespan increases from volunteering and certainly the short. In the short term, people describe an elevated mood, and that's really important actually. We don't have a lot that we can point to for, to patients, to communities, to say like, this is something that will definitively make you feel better in a very short period of time, and. Why this matters, I think most of all, is that it really speaks to our innate need to be purposeful, to have purpose, and to have a life of meaning. You know? And in many cultures there are words for this, you know, and the Japanese call it Ikigai, to have a purpose, to have some meaning, um, meaningful action in one's life. And. Service gives us that opportunity. Save us, save a, gives us that opportunity to remember that we all have meaningful, purposeful lives, we all have something to offer.  I very much use it and view it as a prescription and I can share with you even that our family most Wednesdays, um, is it part of a food distribution network here in our community through a, uh, faith-based organization and we help folks shop, um, through some food distribution shelves and they can choose whatever foods they want and we bag them for them and put them in their carts and. What is so profound about that experience to me is that most of the volunteers are young people. They are teenagers, and they are so full of energy and joy. Nobody's got their phone out. They're all talking to each other. They're talking to elders. They're trying to make connections with people who don't speak the same language they do, and. It's an incredible couple of hours to see the power of goodwill and community and actually just happiness on all sides such that you can feel it in the space. And I think they enjoy it so much. They just come back week after week. Like me, I'm amazed at how many teens are there and on a summer evening, you know, and they could be doing other things. And

[00:29:45] Dr. Melinda Ring: I love that. I love it. Yeah, so it's, it's, yeah, you can start young, but now for people who they're like, I'm already stretched so thin. I feel like I'm caregiving up. I'm caregiving down. Like, how, how do you prescribe service without adding to the load?  Is it something additional to do? Is it a way of viewing what they're already doing through a different lens.,

[00:30:09] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: I appreciate you bringing that up. That is so much, so much of the case for so many where they are caregiving in every direction and there's really no space left in the day, even for their own needs. So. To me, it's a mindset. It's not necessarily about going and adding some other new activity. For some people that may be the case, you know, where they are, they are also using that as an opportunity to connect with other people. It's also being able to engage in community for others who are already caregiving. I do believe it's a mindset, it's a reminder that this care that you're providing, that the eva, that the service is a medicine that you're providing and that is worthy and it's very meaningful. And while it can feel burdensome and it can feel tiring and exhausting as it tends to at times, that it truly can be something that is very, very meaningful for you as well. And I think that shift of thinking about it as a medicine, which is really what the book strives to do, is to help us change the paradigm of what we find exhausting or what we find burdensome and, think about it in a different way. Think about whether it could be part of your medicine pouch to say, this caregiving that I do is the way that I give back to my family, my community, my, you know, workplace, um, can be meaningful as well. We're very complicated emotional beings, and the way that we think about what we do matters just as much as what we do.

[00:31:35] Dr. Melinda Ring: okay. So let's move into something a little more, in the medicines of the spirit. And you are one of the leading voices in dance as medicine. Um, so I've certainly been to some conferences where, you know, the whole room is made. Get up and boogie. So, uh, You talk about this New England Journal of Medicine study that found dancing's the only physical activity associated with the lower risk of dementia. So why is dance a uniquely powerful medicine for the brain and for the spirit?

[00:32:10] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Dance is so unique in that it is one of the very few ways in which we can move our bodies. First of all, instantaneously gives us a feeling of joy. Not all running or tennis or golf, you know, I think can do the same. Most people will agree. And also the brain is actually growing. When we dance, we're making new neuronal connections. Our synapses are forming the right and the left brain are. Connecting and crossing, and you know, we're interpreting rhythm and the rhythm is being translated into movement and all of this is happening subconsciously. You know, we're not using our cognition necessarily to dance when we just listen to music and start moving and to me, that is it. It's an incredibly powerful part of our human physiology that we have that ability to do that, and that actually all of us come from really rich dance cultures. All of us come from communities that danced at weddings, at funerals, at harvests for ritual during times of grief and. That reconnecting and reclaiming our dance roots is actually a way that we can also reduce our risk of neurodegenerative disease, you know, and help our brains be healthy and happy. From where I sit and from the research that I've looked at, as well as from my own personal experience, you know, a couple of minutes a day of dancing is all you need to shift your physiology. And I prescribe this actually because, like you said in the beginning, you know, prescriptions are the way in which the vocabulary in which we are able to communicate with people, um, you know, to keep things, keep, keep a practice into their plan. I prescribe five minutes a day because I, I really can guarantee that in a week of this practice that a person will feel better. I know they will feel better. What happens when they're dancing is there's such a flood of positive neurotransmitters. The pain receptors are diminished. We are out of our front thinking mind. And so there are very few activities that we have in our life that allow us. To do that and dance is one of them and it requires absolutely nothing of us. So my quick and dirty, you know, guide to this is that don't make it complicated. Don't overthink it. If you have always wanted to sign up for a dance class, do it. Sign up for that dance class and go, you know, if that's the accountability that you need. That's certainly what I needed. I signed up and I paid for a class, and then I was like, I paid for this. I'm gonna go. And that jump started my practice again in my forties and you can also just dance in your own house. It does not have to be complicated. You can dance outside, you can dance in your bathroom, you can dance in the shower. It's really about the practice.

[00:34:57] Dr. Melinda Ring:  Don't slip! 

[00:34:57] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Don't slip, but like. It's, it's really, and you can dance sitting down as well. You know, people ask me that too. You can dance sitting in a chair if your body is not allowing you to, you know, have good balance in this moment. For whatever reason, you can be sitting and moving your upper body, or if your upper body is impaired, your lower body can be how you move or you can just be shimmying. The idea is that you're, you're listening to music that makes you happy and your body is translating it into movement, and that is where the power of dance lies. So. If you wanna dance in community, I think you'll get even more benefit because dancing with others allows for a collective effervescence that is, you know, really unmatchable, I think in other kinds of, uh, ways in which we relate to each other. It's just nonverbal joy experienced in community and alone is great too. So it's one of my favorite medicines. It really is.

[00:35:54] Dr. Melinda Ring: And then related to that, I think when I think of joy, play. Play is your ninth medicine. What's actually happening inside the brain and body when we reconnect with clay. And then you mentioned these eight play personalities. Tell, tell us a little bit about those.

[00:36:10] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: So I was fascinated when I started into the research of play that there is so much research on play and profoundly that. What we notice about play is when we're deprived of it in our early years, it actually becomes very difficult to be a functional social person, um, in the world because play is where we learn how to fail. Play is where we learn how to relate to each other as a young person. Play is where we sometimes play in parallel and sometimes play facing each other and we start to learn how to have meaningful relationships. So I thought that was really powerful. I think we think about play as something being very trivial when in fact our, um, entire futures kind of depend on how much free play and functional play that we get as a young person. So as we are in our adult life and we think about play, I think for many adults, even the idea that we're still playful feels kind of foreign. Like playful. Being playful feels like something that is only, you know, reserved for children. And that life has become very serious with all of the responsibilities that come with adulting. And I wanted to include it because. Play is a vital aspect of our humanity and we don't all have to play in the same way. So the research around play, you know, has kind of emerged that there are different play personalities, there are all play personalities that include, you know people who are competitors who maybe like to be out on the soccer field or playing board games or you know, playing games that have a purpose of winning and they get a lot of joy and fun out of that. And then there are other play personalities that are more like the kinesthetic, which does include people who are more movement oriented, who might find dancing to be playful or you know, physical interactions like that. More playful. Playing tag or playing physical games. And then I really resonated with the fact that being a collector is also a form of play. That, like going to vintage stores or collecting rocks or shells on the beach is a way of being playful. 'cause I can really relate to that. Um, so I think, you know, we, the idea of bringing play into the medicine pouches to expand how we think about it. And also remember that. Our own personal practices of telling jokes or storytelling or collecting rocks or pressing flowers or what have you, are ways in which we can bring lightness into a life that has become very focused on productivity and, uh, I, I think we can very, very sweetly and in very small and significant ways, remember that we are beings that are meant for play.

[00:38:45] Dr. Melinda Ring: When you think about people that you've seen or come across who have truly transformed their health, not just a lab value, but changed their lives, is there some commonality that runs through how they approach their health?

[00:39:03] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: As you were asking me, a few different faces just kind of came through my mind of some patients that I've seen recently and that I've worked with for many years and I, and I've seen really. Remarkable transformation in them. Um, and I, I would say that there is a common denominator there, and it isn't just I'm sleeping better or I'm eating better. I've started to exercise more. There's a reclamation of joy, there's a reclamation of joy around living and sometimes. That reclamation happens even when nothing else has changed in their lives. The cancer is still there. The. High blood pressure and the diabetes that's not well controlled is still there. The pain is still there, but there has been a shift around the way that they're living their lives, the practices that they've brought in their mindset around the way they want to live, that has transformed their lives. And you know, in addition, of course, to the. The lifestyle aspects that are very important, the movement and, you know, eating and sleeping and, and it's profound it's, it's profound to me also to witness as a physician how much healing can happen within, from within when a person really decides that they are going to change the way that they view their own life.

[00:40:34] Dr. Melinda Ring: At the end of every episode, we ask our guests about helping listeners reach their next level of health. If everyone listening chose just one practice, just one, that they could create ripple effects throughout their body, physically, mentally, and spiritually, what one thing would you hope they would start doing tomorrow?

[00:40:54] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Well, I would say my final takeaway is that medicine is already all around us. We have to remember how to recognize it and reclaim it and make it available to ourselves. And if I could pick one medicine in one practice, it would be dancing every day. No surprise there.

[00:41:16] Dr. Melinda Ring: That is not a surprise for me to hear.

[00:41:20] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: But I really, really believe this is something that is easy to bring into play, and just a few minutes can change your life.

[00:41:27] Dr. Melinda Ring: Yeah. Put on your favorite song and, and just let your body do whatever it feels like it wants to do. Right. Well, Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark, thank you. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's a joy to spend some time with you.

[00:41:40] Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark: Thank you, Melinda. It was an absolute joy to be with you.

[00:41:44] Dr. Melinda Ring: Today's conversation has been a powerful reminder that the most healing medicines aren't locked behind a prescription pad. They are in our kitchens, in our communities, in the ground beneath our feet. Check out her book Medicine for All People. Full science and ancient wisdom for revolutionary healing and start filling your own medicine pouch. We'll link to it in the show notes. If today's conversation moved you, share it with someone you love, because as Geeta reminds us, we heal in relationship, not in isolation. I'm Dr. Melinda Ring and this is Next Level Health. Until next time, keep rising to your next level. Thank you for joining me on this episode of Next Level Health. I hope you found some inspiration and practical insights to enhance your wellness journey. Don't forget to leave a comment on YouTube or review on Apple Podcasts. I'd love to hear your thoughts and suggestions for future topics or speakers. Be sure to follow Next Level Health with me, Dr. Melinda Ring as we continue exploring the path to healthier, happier lives together.